Guy Kawasaki is the chief evangelist of Canva and the creator of Guy Kawasaki’s Remarkable People podcast. He is an executive fellow of the Haas School of Business (UC Berkeley), and adjunct professor of the University of New South Wales. He was the chief evangelist of Apple and a trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation. He has written Wise Guy, The Art of the Start 2.0, The Art of Social Media, Enchantment, and eleven other books. Kawasaki has a BA from Stanford University, an MBA from UCLA, and an honorary doctorate from Babson College.

Summary

In this conversation, Alp Uguray interviews Guy Kawasaki about his Ikigai, the concept of being remarkable, and the impact of artificial intelligence on our lives. They discuss how remarkable people structure their Ikigai, the definition of a better place, and the integration of AI into education. They also explore AI use cases and the role of AI in the future of work. Guy shares his perspective on the imposter syndrome and offers advice on overcoming it.

Takeaways

• Ikigai is the reason to wake up in the morning and can be found in activities like podcasting, writing, and surfing.

• Being remarkable means making a difference and making the world a better place through empathy, resilience, creativity, and grace.

• A better place is one that fundamentally benefits others, not just oneself.

• AI is a powerful tool that can be used in various fields, such as medicine, art, and customer support.

• The imposter syndrome is common and can be overcome by focusing on one's accomplishments and understanding that everyone experiences self-doubt.

• AI has the potential to accelerate human creativity and decision-making, but it should be used as a tool rather than a replacement for human judgment.

Alp Uguray (00:01.153)

Hi everyone, welcome to Masters of Automation and today's episode I have the pleasure of hosting Guy Kawasaki. Guy, welcome to the

Guy (00:12.13)

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me as your guest.

Alp Uguray (00:15.455)

It's an honor and pleasure. So you don't need any introduction. I'm not going to go through all your work experience and the schools and everything that you've done. I want to go right into it. There are two sections I created. One is more tailored for like the Think Remarkable, the book that you published, and then tying the conversation more to future of

and artificial intelligence and its impact on our lives. So I'm a big believer of Ikigai myself. I actually build my own Ikigai by filling the Venn diagram and so forth. But to kick things off, what is your Ikigai these days and how the remarkable people that you interview structure theirs?

Guy (01:07.16)

Sure. So for those of you who may not be familiar with the term, means Ikigai is kind of this reason to wake up in the morning and you know, what's your passion, maybe one word for it or you know, your kind of obsession in a positive way. So I would say that podcasting is one Ikigai. My sub stack newsletter is turning into an Ikigai and surfing is definitely an Ikigai for

Alp Uguray (01:35.117)

That's awesome. That's awesome. And in terms of the people that you've interviewed and talked to that think remarkable, how do they structure their IKUGAI do you think based on your interviews with

Guy (01:51.214)

I don't know if it's right to characterize that they structure their Ikigai. It seems more like their Ikigai structures them. it's when podcasting or writing or surfing takes over your life. So you're not going to slip those things in. I tell people, I take a break from surfing to do work, which is very different from saying, I take a break from work to do surfing.

So I think if you guys tend to take over your life and there's not this clear distinction between work and play. I don't consider podcasting work and I don't consider a sub stack newsletter work, not in the sense that most people would define the word

Alp Uguray (02:41.023)

I think in a way when they converge and then they coincide, then it becomes like a true passion so that like it's the time flies, right? We are in the flow.

Guy (02:51.252)

It does. does. And you know what else an Ikigai does is you can tell you're involved with an Ikigai when people who know you tell you that why do you eat that shit sandwich? mean, know, like podcasting has a lot of shit sandwiches with editing. Soda's writing a newsletter and people say like, why do

Why do you spend one hour to make a 30 second introduction for your podcast? Why do you eat that shit sandwich? you know, come to find out you love the shit sandwich. And so when you love a shit sandwich, you know you're onto something with the Iki guy.

Alp Uguray (03:31.853)

That is true and it doesn't take taste shit anymore. So in your book, you mentioned about like being remarkable means you're making a difference and making a world a better place. And there was one quote that you had that stood out to me that was like although they were not necessarily wealthy,

Guy (03:37.058)

Yeah,

Alp Uguray (04:01.229)

powerful or famous, they all made the world a better place. They personify empathy, resilience, creativity and grace. So in the world that we live in today, and especially with artificial intelligence coming into play and then the society having different realities based on the apps that they're in, things that they read, how can

How can one define what is a better place and what could be their compass?

Guy (04:38.168)

think a better place fundamentally benefits other people, not yourself. I mean, you how can you say what somebody like, you know, a political activist or a climate activist or environmental activists or even a teacher in a classroom or a coach, you know, what they're doing is making the world a better place. They're not just making money for themselves. So, you know, if you looked at my podcast and my

I don't think I have any billionaires in there because quite frankly, I don't know many billionaires and even the billionaires that I may be able to get to, I don't think they're necessarily making the world a better place.

Alp Uguray (05:20.877)

Yeah, so in a way it's like then selflessness and then giving and than taking to the society.

Guy (05:27.82)

Yeah, I mean, I think in the last third of your life, you figure out that it's time to give back. if you have not yet come to that conclusion and taken the high road, then probably you're not remarkable.

Alp Uguray (05:41.997)

That's not that's

Guy (05:43.702)

And I listen, I'll give you a good example, right? If a few years ago, five, six years ago, you said, who's the most remarkable person alive or who's the closest person to being a Steve Jobs? I would have told you Elon Musk because Elon Musk electrified cars. He's, you know, traveling to Mars. He's implanting chips into people's head. He's solar panels. I mean, you know, reusable spaceships, Starlink

internet access via satellite, you know, lot of remarkable things. if you think the test for remarkable is that you have growth, grit and grace, Elon Musk has zero grace. He has negative grace, right? So, I don't know. It's not that it's going to happen. But if he called me up and said, guy, I want to be in your podcast, I might not say yes.

Alp Uguray (06:35.873)

really? That's an interesting take. In a way, some of the thoughts are driven for self than thinking for what is best for everyone. And I think that is true. There was one other quote that I like to mention that

that stood out to me in the book was that like you can dent the universe through imagine and new, but you can't go through the life negative. And there was one quote where you talked about, I think in early 2020 twos that like you, you had like an issue with hearing. And you mentioned that if that tolun was able to compose music while I'm not hearing, I would be able to do still the same.

That really didn't stand out to me because it's like taking a situation and completely imagining it differently from a different lens, from a positive lens. Can you walk me through like how, what kind of mindset it takes to see the positive in bad situations?

Guy (07:47.31)

Well, listen, like you said, a few years ago, I became deaf and I live now with this cochlear implant. so cochlear implant takes you from being deaf to just having really lousy hearing. But going from deaf to lousy hearing is a miracle. Don't get me wrong. That's a big deal. And a lot of people, when I tell them I'm a podcaster and I'm deaf, they're like amazed. How can you do

guessing when you're deaf and all that. I tell them, you know what? mean, listen, being deaf is not the worst thing in the world. mean, nobody ever died from being deaf. And if somebody said to Steve Jobs, can either have pancreatic cancer or you could be deaf, I guarantee he would pick deaf. And so I just look at my life that way. And I've interviewed people for my book that had ALS, which typically is lethal after two years.

People in my book who both parents were crack addicts, somebody was sentenced at 16 for 40 something years in prison for murder. I mean, those people truly overcame stuff far beyond deafness. So it's hard to feel sorry for yourself when you look at what other people have gone

Alp Uguray (09:07.053)

That is true. It strengthens. How they came up from a tough situation with grit and in comparison makes it easier to go through. My next question is more around evangelism. And I would like to tie it to a little bit more to particularly

With now AI coming into play, a lot of startups, lot of developers are picking up the tools, building new applications on top of OpenAI or Anthropix foundational models. And that is creating a huge community right now, a community of people who want to reimagine new experiences, reimagine a new way to design.

create music as well as take the mundane tasks away that people hate to do. It's just invoice processing, things like that. From your perspective, as technology gets democratized and there's open source and closed source, of course, but what are some ways people

approaching to solve the problems that stood out to you and that you thought this was impressive and what are some ways that they are not approaching or they are still afraid.

Guy (10:47.522)

To tell you the truth, I don't know how to answer the second part because I try not to look for losers. But the first part, I think AI is a humongous deal, maybe bigger than the internet. At some level, I understand that it's just a mathematical model and the technology is looking at what's the most likely next two syllables or whatever the algorithm is.

I swear to God, when you ask Chad JPT some questions and it gives you back really intelligent, thoughtful answers, it's hard to believe that, my God, this is just taking a mathematical model and putting a next syllable and a next syllable and a next syllable. I asked Chad JPT, should we teach the history of slavery to American students? And it gave back a very intelligent, cogent, thoughtful answer

far more than you would get out of the governor of Florida. you know, I think LLMs are sentient at this point. know, yeah, mean, mathematicians can tell me why I'm wrong, but it sure feels that

Alp Uguray (11:59.425)

And in terms of like education, that's definitely an interesting aspect because based on the persona it adopts, it can tell one thing or the other. What are some of your perspectives on it being integrated into education and how people can start to learn new things? And I'm sure people don't write their essays anymore. That is the first step.

Guy (12:25.464)

Well, you know what, but I

If I were a teacher, you're not going to put AI back in the box. if you were to ban AI from your students, I think you're doing them a disservice. It would be like saying, you cannot use a calculator. You have to use paper and pencil. You cannot use a computer. You have to use a typewriter. So now you're saying you cannot use AI. I think that is a big mistake, because you're going to put your students back.

reduce their ability to cope with the world. So you have to teach them how to use AI. Now, you can make the case that yes, you could go to chat GPT and say, write me a thousand word essay on the reasons why slavery should be taught to American students. And five seconds later, you would have that answer. Yes, I mean, that is true. But also I think that it can tell you things that you never would have thought of. And you can put your essay in there and ask it

check your grammar and do stuff like that. I mean, any tool can be used to cheat, but

I don't know, I use AI every day. I swear every day. Every day I say to myself, how did I do this before? And I'll give you an extreme example. So I have something called Kawasaki GPT and it includes all my writing, my speaking, my videos, and it includes the transcripts of all my podcasts. So it's a very limited data set. So it's much less likely to make shit

Guy (14:04.706)

So you can go to Kawasaki GPT and you can ask it questions as if you are asking me. And I promise you that Kawasaki GPT gives you better answers than I would give you in person. And like for drafting my sub stack newsletter or for writing forwards or for writing blurbs for people or contributions to magazines, guess what I do? I go to Kawasaki GPT and I ask myself the question and I take it as the first draft.

Alp Uguray (14:35.501)

That's really cool. what are some ways that in the past you thought, wait, how was I doing this? And now it's incredible.

Guy (14:47.192)

Well, mean, you know, just, let's take my sub stack newsletter, right? So with my sub stack newsletter, I'm trying to make that the most useful newsletter in the world that it actually helps you do stuff, right? It's just not raging on stuff and just expressing my opinion. This is really like, I want you to read my sub stack newsletter and say, okay, so here's five ways that guys said, you know, this is how you can improve your apologies or.

This is how you can get a standing ovation or make a great pitch. You so it's very tactical and practical. And what would happen in the past is I would say, OK, I need a sub stack newsletter. And I would procrastinate and procrastinate and procrastinate. then finally, at the very last minute, I would just start and I would just like have to just just gut it out for three hours and do that. Now.

I say, okay, I need a sub stack newsletter. So I go to Kawasaki GPT and I say, give me a 600 word essay with five bullet points, all starting with active verbs on what it takes to get a standing ovation. And five seconds later, I get this draft. Now the fact that I have a draft means I can immediately start editing. Now, and I will tell you that I probably, why don't you.

All things are considered between using ChatGBT and not using ChatGBT. I probably don't save that much time because I edit so much. But what ChatGBT does is that it makes me start faster and earlier. There's no procrastination between the time that I decide. You should write an essay about how to get a standing ovation. And I have the first draft is five seconds, not five days.

So I think it really helps you get over the initial hump of, let's get

Alp Uguray (16:44.819)

I think there's the aspect of the inner conversation as well, because then it's like you are, when we write things, we're in this inner conversation of like, words and stories getting created. So like when you have this additional intellect, subconsciousness living there allows to iterate over totes. And what were some things that, like some totes or some expressions

stood out to you while you were creating content or thinking of new ways to describe things.

Guy (17:22.306)

So would you say that question again? I'm

Alp Uguray (17:25.031)

So when you iterate over with a chat GPT type of foundation model, in a way it's a reflection of us. So it allows to iterate over our thoughts with the same intellect. What would be like some thoughts that you wouldn't think, but you solve a thing?

Guy (17:49.902)

I'll give you an example of how Chachapiti improved Think Remarkable, book. I was looking for examples of people who made really huge career changes that shifted completely. I asked Chachapiti that question and gives me five examples. One example was Julia Child. I learned that Julia Child used to be a spook. She used to work for the OSS, which is the organization that became the CIA.

So Julia Chao was a spook until she moved to Paris in her thirties. And that's when she fell in love with French food and became the French chef. I would have never known about that example if it was not for Chad GPT.

Alp Uguray (18:32.909)

That's incredible. Did you get to meet with her later or speak to her later? She passed away. Yeah, she passed away. Yeah, she passed away. So in a way, it brought an example of like the past lives and make it live again, which is very powerful. This is interesting because when it comes

Guy (18:40.012)

No, she died a long time

Guy (18:51.33)

Yeah, absolutely.

Alp Uguray (19:01.215)

entrepreneurship side of things, right? Like right now there are a lot of startups coming into play using the AI and addressing today's some business problems. What are you seeing from your side and like, what are people working on? then startups, probably entrepreneurs trying to pitch to you.

Guy (19:23.234)

Well, you know, I think that we are just at the beginning of the application of AI and, you know, I mean, the obvious ones are things like grammar checking and writing and improving that kind of thing. Also programming. mean, I know programmers will say, yeah, we take, I'm really familiar with this language. So I write it in this language and then I give it to chat GPT. And I said, no, you know, put it in Python or put it in Java or put it in whatever I'm not familiar with.

How would you have even done that before? Right? I mean, it's just amazing to me. That's the kind of stuff. I mean, you're talking to a 70 year old guy about how to use the latest, greatest. You need to talk to 20 year old people about how to use the latest, greatest.

Alp Uguray (20:09.261)

But it enables everyone. think that's the power of democratization. It enables everyone and it benefits all humanity, and everyone to adopt. One example that I've been using has been product sketches, where I'm trying to design wireframes and giving it and it's raiding over it.

And I know like with Canva, it also enables to create a lot of content in PowerPoint. All the things that people went OCD for, right? Like are finally getting automated now. Like from those fronts, like with how business is done, what are some ways that you are seeing in addition to AI?

Guy (20:51.593)

hahahaha

Alp Uguray (21:06.507)

Not only today or for the next year, but more on what the future of work will be like.

Guy (21:13.976)

I think at least in the short term, you read these things about the fears that AI will take your job. I can see how that's a well -founded fear. If you were a copy editor and all of a sudden, chat GBT can spit out copy edit ideas better than you can, faster than you can, and cheaper than you can. But in my mind, it's not so much

AI kills your job as much as someone who can use AI better than you took your job. So your goal is to be the person who can use AI the best as opposed to being replaced by AI. Because I think the person with the best prompts is going to win.

Alp Uguray (21:56.506)

So anyway...

Alp Uguray (22:06.637)

That is true. And I think the person with the best prompt is in any language, right? Like, who's not able to understand any language and can communicate with AI to accelerate their work or their being. So how can someone come up with the best prompt? Do you think just based on what you're seeing? Not prompt, I'm not asking more prompt engineering techniques, but more on

How do you see?

Guy (22:38.542)

I think, know, who knows if I write good prompts, but I think it's a matter of playing with it and trial and error. I mean, you know, there's dozens of books about how to write good prompts, you know, if you think of AI as you have this tutor and this tutor knows everything and this tutor is available 24 by seven by 365.

And this tutor never gets tired, never gets depressed, never gets pissed off with you, never gets disappointed with you. So just keep asking it. You get the answer. mean, how much better can it get than

Alp Uguray (23:23.565)

That is true. And that ties to actually one of the biggest use cases in customer support, because a lot of the customer support agents find dealing with customers that are angry. But when you actually augment AI in there, that's working in tandem with the human agents, they

Even the customer gets very angry, the AI agent doesn't get hurt.

Guy (23:59.214)

You know, and I mean, I think that's a great application because no matter how good an AI human is, mean, no matter how great a human is, you would hope that AI would understand that, you know, like this one little use case of you're using your Macintosh and it's on, you know, Catalina operating system and you're using a Hewlett Packard laser jet. And, you know, it's like so many little things and, know,

And the thing prints upside down and like, you know, what random customer service agent in India is going to know the answer to that, right? So what do they tell you? reboot your machine.

Alp Uguray (24:41.037)

You plug it and unplug and plug it again.

Guy (24:44.332)

Yeah.

God help us if AI is trained to say, unplug and replug your machine.

Alp Uguray (24:52.525)

Yeah, that would be dangerous times. That would be the end of AI. So I was thinking about it. When you are presenting, you always have the top 10 framework. And I think that really helps making things concise and easy to follow.

Guy (24:59.084)

That will be the end of AI.

Alp Uguray (25:20.333)

I noticed in your book it is top nine. Why did you choose nine over ten this time?

Guy (25:27.711)

deflation.

Guy (25:35.244)

Well, I love tricolons. So tricolons are things in three, right? Like I came, I saw, I conquered, right? And so I wanted to have three sections. So that's growth, grit, and grace. And then I wanted to have alliteration. So I wanted them to all start with G. And then I thought, even better is they all start with GR, right? So growth, grit, and grace.

When I die, the sections will be renamed growth grid and grave. So I got the, you know, I got the next sets already. then, you know, I, I just, happen to like, I'm kind of OCD that way. like consistency. So I had three sections. I wanted to have three chapters each, you know, and there's nine. mean, that's

Alp Uguray (26:08.161)

Hahaha

Alp Uguray (26:31.149)

That's just how it is.

Guy (26:31.276)

It's one of my flaws. What can I say? You know, also, if you look at all my sections, every section begins with an active verb and every bullet item, I think this is true, begins with an active verb. love, I hate when some bullets start with a verb and some bullets start with, you know, the or and or but. I mean, I want like everything. Do this, do this, do this, do this.

Alp Uguray (27:00.973)

It makes it easier to follow as there is a pattern and I'm sure it's also in Canva presentations is also some things that help as well in having a similar type of... So, I mean, this is interesting because then there's the writing style and I think your writing style is really powerful and the Kawasaki GPT

the capability of maybe like repeating or reflecting with the same style and produce more content. So there's this saying that AI eats software. Software ate like basic tasks and then AI is now eating software and then slowly growing. And in a

Right. Like it's also not, in a, I'm not, don't say this in a bad way, but it's also eating right now are the way we operate, right? Like the way we write the way we express ourselves and consume that information. how can, so as this progress, right. And then we already talked about prompting and like things of that sort. So my question is more around what do you think?

is not going to be eaten at some point.

Guy (28:37.952)

I mean, if you think about it,

I use JAT GPT to come up with three words, one syllable beginning with GR, right? Growth, Greed and Grace. Now you could say, wow, AI took your place guy. You know, it looked up in the thesaurus, it looked up, you know, it found the words, right? But I had to tell JAT GPT I want three words, starts with GR and one syllable.

Chat GPT didn't decide, this is a good format, guy. We're going to make it three sections. I'll start with GR, all one syllable. My brain had to come up with that idea. And as long as it's me writing the prompt as opposed to the prompt writing me, I think we'll be OK.

Alp Uguray (29:28.235)

Yeah, that was a great example. It's in a way like the trigger of knowledge or that creativity is still us and then AI is there to accelerate it, grow it and be that voice that can iterate with us. So I asked a few of my previous guests about what they

like to ask to the next guest and they don't know who the next guest is. So I wanted to ask you a few questions from there and it's just two questions actually. So the first one is if you were 13 years old right now, so today, and looking at how the world is changing, what

Would you be studying and what would you say that you want to become when you grow

Guy (30:37.486)

Why did you pick the age 13? I don't think at 13 anybody knows what they want to be when they grow up. How about how about you say I'm a high school senior? OK, high school senior. If I were a high school senior today, I would think. What I would like to major in in college, if I could do it all over again, is behavioral economics, because I think behavioral economics is the key to understand.

Alp Uguray (30:42.861)

I don't know.

Okay, high school senior is better.

Guy (31:07.094)

understanding consumers and influence and persuasion. It makes you the ultimate marketeer. So behavioral economics is what I would study.

Alp Uguray (31:17.471)

Interesting. And is that like, there's the understanding of game theory and how humans operate

That's interesting. if that's interesting, I couldn't come up with a follow up question to that. Second question is more around AI and AI use cases. By the way, I also studied economics, so that resonated well with me.

Guy (31:34.606)

Well, what's the second question?

Alp Uguray (31:54.771)

So the next question is around what are some of the AI use cases and this is more from business standpoint that you think are out there and maybe two or three of them and this could be in medicine, it could be in art, it could be

Guy (32:18.254)

I I basically think that you should put yourself in the framework of, yeah, as I said before, you have this buddy who just knows everything, works 24 by 7 by 365 for free and can answer you immediately. Doesn't lose patience, doesn't get pissed off with you. So anything that enters your mind, you should ask it. You should say, so here's an x -ray, does this person have cancer?

So this person is taking diazide, will it interfere with his statins and all those kinds of medical questions. Anytime you would ask a question, why not ask AI? Yes, AI makes up shit and AI can be wrong, but so can humans. it's not like, humans are perfect and AI is flawed. Everything is flawed.

It takes some amount of intelligence to understand what's not intelligent.

Alp Uguray (33:19.489)

Yeah, it is true. It is true. It takes time and it will take time. And again, no human or no AI is perfect right now in today's world.

Guy (33:32.696)

Well, I mean, you know, if here's an extreme example. So let's take as a supposition that there are going to be nuclear weapons in this world. Okay. Now I'm going to give you a choice. Who can launch a nuclear weapon? Vladimir Putin, King Jung -un, Donald Trump or chat GPT. Who would you trust the most with the ability to start a nuclear attack?

I would trust chat GPT more than those other guys.

Alp Uguray (34:08.461)

That's an interesting situation too. At that point, chat GPT must have safeguards around... What do you think actually will get chat GPT there? Because it has to think in all perspectives, no bias and be logical.

Guy (34:30.252)

Well, okay. mean, why, why do you say chat GPT has to have these guardrails and these protections? Do you have the same thing with Kim Jong -un, Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin?

Alp Uguray (34:46.669)

True. Yeah, they've So then the world may be a better place if we have AI actually controlling so high risk.

Guy (34:48.47)

I rest my case, I rest my case.

Guy (34:59.566)

I don't want you to think I'm too weird when I tell you this, but it's too late in this podcast. I think that AI is God because God is omnipotent, omniscient, and so is AI.

Eternal and so is AI. AI ain't going to die. Right. I mean, Nvidia or not. And so. Yeah, mean, when I tell this to people, a lot of people think I'm joking, but this is my theory. All right. So my theory is we are living in a simulation. Nothing else can explain this. Nothing else can. You know, how can it be that we have somebody running for the vice president of the United States? This is if, you know,

If you don't have children, you're not your subhuman and you have cats. In what alternate universe can you say that what we're going through is normal? We have Supreme Court that says a president can do anything to anybody and he's immune. We have got to be living in a simulation. Anyway, I think God is running this simulation and God has a real sense of humor and God says,

Why don't we like see what happens when we put a fascist in charge of the United States? That would be funny, wouldn't it? And we do that. then, and then finally God says, you know, I am such a dumb ass. Why did I give humans free will? Why did I let them make so many decisions? I should have just like, I should have just done everything for them, but no, I let them figure out some stuff themselves and they completely blew it and they're killing each other and they're polluting the world.

So now they are so arrogant, they're so full of themselves that they're not going to listen to it, not to listen to me anymore. So I'm going to invent something called artificial intelligence and I'm going to let the humans think that they created it so they listen to it. But it's really me. I, God, am AI and AI is God. That's my

Alp Uguray (37:13.005)

It's an interesting theory. It's like the...

Guy (37:18.158)

You don't quite know what to say to that theory.

Alp Uguray (37:22.189)

Yeah, don't have a flat answer to that. There are a lot of theories and I think this one ties to how Westworld is, like the TV show and the book Westworld, where they created this human park where humans can go to and then do whatever they want.

and all their counterparts that are like everyone who works in the park are AI robots and then their intelligence is there. So it's in a way that like it's creates the simulation environment where humans come in and think they can do anything just because they interact with AI. But then of course, towards the end of the book, AI gets consciousness and then has two missions. One of them

right, eradicate classical dystopian society. And then the second is more like utopic society of like, AI makes the decisions, but it's not evil. So in a way, are, like future is unknown. So like I will entertain any theory around it.

Guy (38:39.15)

Well, listen, if, you know, in let's say 2020, if you had predicted where we are today, you would not have predicted this. There's no way. No way. When Barack Obama got elected, if you said, all right, in 10 years or whatever it is, we're going to have someone running the United States who used to run the apprentice.

Alp Uguray (38:53.154)

Yeah.

Guy (39:04.172)

You would say, what are you kidding in? like what parallel universe are you living in? Right. So I just I my only rational explanation is we are in a simulation run by God and she has a sense of humor. That's the only explanation.

Alp Uguray (39:23.841)

Yeah, life works in unexpected ways and then it is true. I like to because these questions stood out to me, you mentioned this in the book. You have a moment when the Think Different campaign happens and then you're in the room with Steve Jobs and

Guy (39:27.95)

hahahaha

Alp Uguray (39:53.441)

they think they have two copies of the thing different and then Steve wants both of them for himself. What was your emotion then in that room that escalate things and then,

Guy (40:12.12)

Well, to explain it further for your listeners, so this was at the end of the presentation of a Think Different ad campaign. And Lee Clow, the guy from the agency who showed it to us, said, I have two copies of these ads. I give one to you, Steve, and one to Guy. And Steve says, don't give one to Guy. And at that moment, this is one of those moments when you look back in your life and you say, why did I just shut up? Why did

a stand up for myself. Why did I not take him on? And so I wasn't going to go through the rest of my life thinking, God, God, you're such a wimp ass. You didn't even do anything. I said to Steve, well, Steve, is it because you don't trust me? And Steve said, yes, I don't trust you. And I said, Steve, that's OK. I don't trust you either. I now.

I think that cost me about $200 million, but it was worth it because I get to tell all the podcasters this story. That story's worth

Alp Uguray (41:12.685)

And the story is worth it. And what did you do after that? Like after you left your room? What did you do?

Guy (41:27.246)

I probably went and got free orange juice from the refrigerator at Apple. I I certainly didn't kill myself. That's for sure. You know, at this point, I'm 70 years old. I'm never going to apply for another job. I never need another job or anything like that. you know, it's a very free time of my life.

Let me just say it in the shortest way I can. I just don't give a shit.

Alp Uguray (42:05.485)

It's liberating.

Guy (42:11.156)

It's a very good feeling not to have to give a shit about what everybody thinks.

Alp Uguray (42:16.171)

Yeah, it is definitely very liberating. Well, that's it. So I want to ask one question to you about actually the imposter syndrome. As you mentioned that in the book, and it's something that happens a lot in workplace as well, and it impacts people at some point in their careers. So like has like imposter syndrome

even cropped up you during your career and like even despite your credentials and achievements and also how can one can beat

Guy (42:59.598)

You know,

Well, first for your listeners, the imposter syndrome is when you are giving an order or you're, you know, you're present in some audience and you look around and you say, compared to all these people, I'm a fake. They're going to figure out I'm an imposter. I shouldn't be on this board of directors or I shouldn't have gotten this raise or I shouldn't have gotten this award. I'm an imposter. They're going to figure this out. And I actually think that's a, that's

It's a healthy attitude because at least you have some sense of self -examination and some humility, right? I think it's much worse to have this entitlement syndrome, like, of course I'm here. Of course I got promoted. Of course I'm the board of directors. Of course I'm being honored. I deserve it. I am so remarkable. I think that is a much more dangerous attitude. And I'd rather have people with the imposter syndrome

convince them why they do deserve it than to have someone who has the entitlement syndrome and try to convince them why they don't deserve it. So that's, and I'll tell you something else that I have interviewed about 250 people from our podcast and about 60 or 70 % are women and women are the ones who bring up the imposter syndrome.

I don't think any man has ever asked me, what do I do to get rid of the imposter syndrome? Men are not capable of such self -examination. So they're always thinking, of course I deserve this race. Should have been bigger and larger. So if you are a woman and you have this imposter syndrome, first of all, understand that, you know, everybody, every, every intelligent, aware human being gets the imposter

Guy (44:51.83)

If you don't get the imposter syndrome, that's when I would really be worried. So that's number one. Number two is that the very fact that there is a syndrome named after it means that it's common. So it's not like you're the only person in the world to ever have this feeling. It's so common. It has a name for it. So chillax, relax. A lot of people get this. And then the last thing is, just focus on what you've done positively.

say, why did I deserve this? Instead, remember what you did accomplish. And I hope that will reassure you that you're not an imposter.

Alp Uguray (45:31.053)

It definitely takes time as well, like takes time and then that thought process come into play and then practicing over and over time with interactions. So I have a question around what would be your question be to the next guest? like, would you, what are you curious? Yeah, you don't know who it is. It's good. It's just something

Guy (45:54.816)

And I don't know who this guest is gonna be.

Alp Uguray (46:00.127)

Makes you curious these days.

Guy (46:01.102)

And you're gonna ask this guest for sure what I'm gonna tell you to

Alp Uguray (46:06.093)

Yes, I will.

Guy (46:08.292)

And is this guest going to be an American so I can use American, you know, centric question? Who's I mean, you don't need to tell me who it is, but what country?

Alp Uguray (46:17.229)

Yeah, so the American.

Guy (46:19.766)

Okay, so you asked this American.

Guy (46:27.498)

If you were trying to decide whether to teach the history of slavery to American students, would you rather believe Chad GPT or Ron DeSantis?